Sunday, February 14, 2010

4 Agamemnon

1. Lorn: desolate, forsaken.
-Merriam-Webster Online

Lines 1861-1865: "Thereafter, the lorn exile homeward stole
And clung a suppliant to the heart divine,
And for himself won this immunity-
Not with his own blood to defile the land
That gave him birth..."


2. Agamemnon cries out for help soon after Cassandra enters the palace, leading the Chorus to rightfully fear the worst. More shouts continue as the Chorus bickers over how to act, and then the shouts stop and Clytemnestra is standing over the bodies of Agamemnon and Cassandra. Clytemnestra justifies the murder by pointing out that he had killed their daughter and deserved to be killed as well. The Chorus is extremely shaken, mourning the king and blaming Helen of Troy for all of the troubles of late. Clytemnestra insists that by taking her husband's life she has ended the curse on their family. All of a sudden Aegisthus shows up and takes credit for the murder, claiming that he was leading Clytemnestra toward the act of violence unbeknownst to anyone. The Chorus tells Aegisthus that he will be killed, and they trade insults. Clytemnestra intercedes, arguing that what was meant to happen has happened. The Chorus accepts this but says that Orestes will take vengeance upon his return.


3. This section particularly emphasizes Clytemnestra's strength as a woman. She shows no remorse for killing her husband; rather, she sees her actions as completely justified and will not be persuaded otherwise. She rebukes the Chorus for saying that she was wrong to kill Agamemnon and in the end makes them see her side. However, at the end of the play, there is a feeling of moral uncertainty. While Clytemnestra first appeared to be a grieved mother seeking revenge, with the surfacing of her lover, Aegisthus, questions arise. Did she kill her husband solely because of his heartlessness toward her daughter, or did she have other intentions? Was she acting as a woman insane with bereavement or an adulteress seeking more power? Moreover, will the Chorus's prediction of Orestes's return be proven true? Will he revenge his father and kill his mother and Aegisthus? Clytemnestra seems pretty full of herself at the end of the play. Will the gods see this as hubris and end her life just as they did to her husband? If she isn't careful, it seems that this is where the next part of the play will be heading.
I think it's very strange that the Chorus is so full of threats but never follows through. When Clytemnestra kills Agamemnon and Cassandra, they tell her that she will be banished. She talks them out of it quite easily. Then, when Aegisthus takes credit, they say that he will be killed. Once again they are subdued. If the Chorus represents the elders of Argos, it is unthinkable to me that they should be so weak. Perhaps Clytemnestra's power intimidates them: she has a very domineering personality and it is said earlier in the play that she ruled better than her husband had. Either way, I found the Chorus to be a very interesting aspect of the play.


4. In the final moments of the play is Clytemnestra demonstrating hubris? If so, will she be smote for it? She seems very confident and sure of herself, but perhaps a bit too much so.

Is there a reason for the Chorus's easy obedience to their queen, even after she does something that seems so horrid to them? Why do they not stand up for themselves and for Argos?

Is Clytemnestra meant to be a sympathetic character? Are we meant to approve of her actions, or to be disgusted by them? Was Aeschylus suggesting that she was right to murder Agamemnon? Or was he trying to set her up to be a monster?

Tuesday, February 9, 2010

2 Agamemnon

1. Rapine: : pillage, plunder
-Merriam-Webster Online

Lines 636-642: "But at Fate's judgement-seat the robber stands
Condemned of rapine, and his prey is torn
Forth from his hands, and by his deed is reaped
A bloody harvest of his home and land
Gone down to death, and for his guilt and lust
His father's race pays double in the dust."


2. The Herald enters, ecstatic to be back in his homeland, Argos. A touching greeting takes place between the Chorus and the Herald. He then announces the return of Agamemnon and goes on passionately about how the warriors have suffered greatly. Clytemnestra reminds the Chorus that she told them the war was over, even persisting in her argument when they did not believe her. She then asks the Herald to tell Agamemnon to hurry home as she misses him greatly. The Chorus asks the Herald what has become of Menelaus, Agamemnon's brother and Helen's real husband, but the Herald is unsure of his fate. After the Herald leaves the Chorus once again mentions Helen, this time relating her to death. Agamemnon arrives grandly in a chariot with Cassandra. Clytemnestra comes forward and (sarcastically) greets her husband very enthusiastically, comparing him to the gods. Agamemnon seems to fail to see her irony and is abashed by her praise, telling her he isn't worthy.


3. The uncertain fate of Menelaus raises the question of Hubris and the gods' response to such pride. The Greeks defeated the Trojans, even though the gods did not want them to go to war. They had their victory, but the gods surely did not want them to go unpunished. It is not known whether Menelaus returns home or not; however, the fact that he had difficulty in doing so, either way, suggests that the gods were angry. As angry as the gods might be at Menelaus, they must be infinitely more furious toward Agamemnon. Not only did he go to war, but he slaughtered his daughter in order to do so. The gods did not tell him he was free to fight, they told him to sacrifice his daughter because he should have known that they would never ask him to do such a thing in seriousness. However, Agamemnon killed his daughter in spite of this and sailed off to battle. This act made it seem that Agamemnon viewed himself as superior to the gods, which would have angered them greatly. From Greek legend it is known that Hubris does not get a free pass - ever. If Agamemnon's pride was not so bloated and his ego so large, he would realize that he is in grave danger. However, because he is elated with the victory and the glory of war, he assumes safety. We will have to see if he is a fool for doing so.


4. Did Aeschylus intend to write Agamemnon as a naive character, simply not realizing his mistake in disobeying the gods, or was he supposed to be arrogant?

Was Clytemnestra genuinely overjoyed to see her husband and praising him sincerely, or was she, as I suspect, sarcastically greeting him? If the latter, did he miss the sarcasm entirely or did he pick up on it? Either possibility could greatly alter the play.

Why is the Chorus so hesitant in believing Clytemnestra? Has she been proven to be a liar previously? Is it because she is a woman?

3 Agamemnon

1. Bower: 1 : an attractive dwelling or retreat
2 : a lady's private apartment in a medieval hall or castle
3 : a shelter (as in a garden) made with tree boughs or vines twined together : arbor
-Merriam-Webster Online

Lines 1000-1002: "And he who followed spake of ill on ill,
Keening Lost, lost all lost! thro' hall and bower."


2. Clytemnestra praises Agamemnon highly, going so far as to lay a purple carpet down for him to walk on. Agamemnon humbly refuses, saying that he is afraid of the gods and is a mere mortal. Clytemnestra doesn't let it go, though, and eventually Agamemnon enters on the carpet. Cassandra remains outside, even when Clytemnestra tells her to come in. She then cries to the gods, much to the confusion of the Chorus. Cassandra explains that Apollo cursed her with the gift of prophecy but the curse of nobody believing her. She then states that she, along with Agamemnon, is fated to die by a woman. The Chorus doesn't understand her implication, and she goes to enter the hall.


3. Agamemnon's feigned modesty both amused and angered me. After arriving loudly and arrogantly at his palace, declaring victory and honor, it is no secret that he regards himself very highly. However, in a show of the "goodness" of his character, he refuses to walk on the purple carpet that his wife laid down for him. Although Clytemnestra did so in a sarcastic manner, the fact that he fancies himself so humble makes me laugh. When he claims that he is humble before the gods, I wonder how anyone took him seriously. He is the one who killed his own beloved daughter to spite them and go to war against their wishes. Clearly he has no respect for the deities. Eventually, Agamemnon caves in and walks on the carpets, showing a lack of willpower as well. His wife, a woman, could control him quite easily. What kind of King must he have been? Did he allow his pride to get in the way of nation-wide matters as well?
Cassandra uses many animals to describe Clytemnestra. Around lines 1408-1416, she makes a comparison both to a "coward lion, crouching in the lair" and a "dog-like" nature. In line 1420 she compares the Queen to "the double snake." Again in line 1448, Cassandra calls Clytemnestra a "lioness." Clytemnestra is also compared to both a spider and a snake at various points in the story. Why so many animal references? Obviously they're symbolic, with the snake being deceitful and untrustworthy, the spider spinning a web of lies, and the lioness representing her power as Queen. "Dog-like" is likely because of the lowliness of dogs in comparison to humans. It's ironic, though, because in modern times dogs are seen as extremely loyal. Clytemnestra, however, slays her own husband. Loyal? I think not.


4. I assume Clytemnestra had planned to murder Agamemnon for awhile. Did she know that he would be bringing home a concubine? Was Cassandra's murder also in her plan, or was it spur of the moment?

Why does the Chorus not believe Cassandra after she explains her curse? Is it that thorough, or are they naive? It would seem to me that if she tells them she can see the future but nobody will believe her, they would believe whatever she predicts. Obviously I would not have done well in the Chorus, though.

Are the multiple animals supposed to represent the many faces of Clytemnestra? Most characters in the story are only compared to one animal, but she is compared to many. Is this to show her complexities? Are we supposed to understand her more than any other character?

1 Agamemnon

1. Trammels: 1 : a net for catching birds or fish; especially : one having three layers with the middle one finer-meshed and slack so that fish passing through carry some of the center net through the coarser opposite net and are trapped
2 : an adjustable pothook for a fireplace crane
3 : a shackle used for making a horse amble
4 : something impeding activity, progress, or freedom : restraint —usually used in plural
5 a : an instrument for drawing ellipses b : a compass for drawing large circles that consists of a beam with two sliding parts —usually used in plural c : any of various gauges used for aligning or adjusting machine parts
-Merriam-Webster Online

Lines 424-428: "...Till neither warrior may 'scape,
Nor stripling lightly overleap
The trammels as they close, and close,
Till with the grip of doom our foes
In slavery's coil are bound!"


2. The story begins with a watchman in Argos waiting for the lighting of the beacons that will signify the end of the war. The Greeks have been fighting the Trojans under the command of Agamemnon, Argos' king. In the King's absence, his wife, Clytemnestra, has been ruling. The piles light, telling that the war is over. He tells Clytemnestra, who orders celebrations throughout the city, much to the confusion of the unknowing Chorus. Clytemnestra also recounts her husband's willing sacrifice of their daughter, Iphigenia, to appease the gods' bluff. The Chorus then questions Clytemnestra, disbelieving her claims of victory over Troy. She says that she is not foolish, and that she would not spread gossip. The war is over, and the soldiers will be returning home.


3. By having Clytemnestra document the sacrifice of her daughter, Iphigenia, by her husband, Agamemnon, Aeschylus draws support for the Queen and disdain toward the King before we even meet him. The Gods asked for Iphigenia as a sacrifice as a bluff; they did not ever require sacrifices, and Agamemnon should have known that. However, his pride got the best of him, and his desire for war and to relive his glory days was so strong that he killed his own daughter in order to do so. This would obviously have infuriated the gods, not to mention his wife. Having the gods angry with you is never a good thing in Greek legend, so Agamemnon is doomed from the start. The audience sees this hubris and likely has already formed a bias against Agamemnon, which I think is interesting. Before meeting a character, we have already turned against him.
Clytemnestra is presented as an extremely strong, self-confident woman. When her husband left for war she took over for him and ended up doing a better job. She does not need a man to help her rule; in fact, she flourished alone. When the Chorus harassed her regarding the accuracy of her report of the downfall of Troy, she did not back down or get flustered. Rather, she stood her ground and defended herself well, stating that she was above rumors. A lot of old work shows women as meek and feeble, so I was really excited to read about such a powerful woman.
Another strong woman, Helen, appears in the play, but in not nearly such a favorable light. Helen was married to Menelaus, but after Aphrodite promised the most beautiful mortal woman to Paris, he took her away from Menelaus to Troy. There Paris and Helen were married, provoking the war that ensued to try to get her back. Because of this, Helen is seen as promiscuous and seems to be looked down upon by the Chorus. Although Clytemnestra may have had an affair, she is seen in a much more positive light than Helen. These two women contrast each other in a way, although both strong women.


4. Did Aeschylus personally side with Clytemnestra? Did he think Agamemnon was foolish for going to war, even when the gods clearly did not approve? It certainly appears that way from his play.

Will the gods directly punish Agamemnon for his hubris? What will happen? I'm sure they won't let his disobedience go unpunished.

Will Clytemnestra abdicate her power over Argos to her husband, or will she retain it? She is said to have done a better job than he.

Saturday, February 6, 2010

King Lear, Act V

1. Puissant: having puissance: powerful.
-Merriam-Webster Online

Act V, Scene III, Lines 253-255: "His grief grew puissant and the strings of life
Began to crack: twice then the trumpets sounded,
And there I left him tranced."


2. This act begins with Regan and Edmund. Regan jealously questions Edmund as to whether he has made love to her sister, which Edmund denies. Albany and Goneril enter, warning of the coming French troops joined by Lear, Cordelia, and their armies. Albany, although sympathetic with Lear, declares that he will fight with Regan and Goneril. Neither Cordelia nor Regan will leave Edmund alone with the other, so the three exit. Edgar, still disguised, catches Albany. He gives Albany a letter that he found on Oswald declaring Goneril's intentions with Edmund. Edmund tells the audience that he has sworn love to each of the feuding sisters, but that he intends to wait until after battle to decide what to do. The battle takes place, and unfortunately, Lear and Cordelia's side loses and the two are captured. Edmund sends them away and Albany, Regan, and Goneril enter. Regan declares her love for Albany and her intention of marrying him, but feels mysteriously ill. Albany arrests Edmund for treason. Regan, growing more ill by the moment, exits. Edgar reappears to fight Edmund for his treason. Edgar defeats Edmund and Albany tells Goneril that he knows of her plot. She then rushes out. Edgar finally reveals himself to Albany and tells of how when he told his father who he really was, Gloucester died of joy. A man rushes in, proclaiming that Goneril has poisoned her sister and killed herself. The bodies are brought in. Edmund tells Albany that he has ordered Cordelia to be hanged, and although a guard is sent, it is too late. Lear enters with his daughter's body, overwhelmed by grief. Lear then dies as well, leaving Kent, Albany and Edgar.


3. The length of battle is surprisingly short, especially considering the entire play has built up to it. Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that the battle itself is not nearly as important as the web of betrayal, lust, and avarice that formed around it. By this point in the story most of the action is set. Goneril and Regan are openly competing for Edmund. This competition is not only dividing the but greatly weakening them as well. Whereas before the two had each other for support, they now cannot trust one another. Their swift rise to power came through their double betrayal of their father and their teamwork based manipulation. While sparring over Edmund, the sisters are quickly losing power to the very object of their affection. Edmund, meanwhile, stands with much to gain. Whether he chooses Goneril or Regan, both of whom would willingly take him, he will benefit. Albany has changed sides, going from a wicked ally of the sisters to a compassionate supporter of Gloucester and Lear. It's also fascinating to remember that all of the characters, while fighting against each other, are on the same side. They're all technically British, and should be fighting with each other against the French. This clearly complicates things tremendously. As the play draws to a close, characters begin dying in rapid succession. By the end of the play, Goneril, Regan, Cornwall, Edmund, Cordelia, Lear, and Gloucester are all dead, among other more minor characters. In fact, only Albany, Edgar, and Kent survive, but Kent claims that he is near death. The great amount of death raises the question of whether death was meant to be a prominent theme in the play: I would argue that it is. Unfortunately, it is apparent that good does not always triumph. Although the surviving characters are all good ones, many of the "good guys" end up dead. Cordelia, the character depicted in a saintly manner, was hung by people from her own side of the war. Lear, who finally found redemption, also met an untimely demise. Gloucester, who suffered greatly for no apparent reason, died of joy, which hardly seems fair. At the moment in the play where he finally felt bliss and was not wishing to die, he died. Ironic, but unjust. Gloucester, as I mentioned in a previous post, spent the majority of the play wallowing in sorrow. He endured great injury at the hands of Goneril, Regan, Cornwall, and Edmund. To die of happiness is fitting but somewhat dissatisfying to the reader.


4. Was Shakespeare aiming to speak of justice, or lack thereof, with the deaths at the end of the play? Was he pointing to the survivors to demonstrate that good triumphs, or was he hoping to let the plethora of corpses speak for the idea that both the good and the evil die?

In the end, Edmund tells where Lear and Cordelia are in an effort to let Albany save them. Has he also had a change of heart, or did he think it was too late for them to be saved?

Did Edmund actually love either Goneril or Regan, or was he simply looking for personal gain? I am leaning strongly toward the latter, but it would be interesting to hear discussion either way. They both seemed to really like him, but whether they loved him or wanted advancement is another question.

Wednesday, February 3, 2010

King Lear, Act IV

1. Hemlock: 1 a : any of several poisonous herbs (as a poison hemlock or a water hemlock) of the carrot family having finely cut leaves and small white flowers b : a drug or lethal drink prepared from the poison hemlock
2 : any of a genus (Tsuga) of evergreen coniferous trees of the pine family; also : the soft light splintery wood of a hemlock
-Merriam-Webster Online

Page 82 (Act IV, Scene IV): "Cordelia: Alack, 'tis he: why, he was met even now
As mad as the vexed sea; singing aloud;
Crowned with rank fumiter and furrow-weeds,
With hardocks, hemlock, nettles, cuckoo-flowers,
Darnel, and all the idle weeds that grow
In our sustaining corn. A century send forth;
Search every acre in the high-grown field,
And bring him to our eye."


2. Edgar, disguised as Poor Tom, overhears his father tell Kent that if he could only touch his son (Edgar) again, his blindness would be worth it. Despite this, Edgar decides to remain disguised. Gloucester then asks Edgar to lead him to Dover, particularly to the tallest cliff. Meanwhile, Goneril and Edmund arrive at Goneril's castle. Oswald meets them, telling the pair of Albany's disapproval. Furious, Goneril raises troops to fight the French and hints strongly to Edmund that she is interested in him sexually. He then leaves as Albany enters, and the husband and wife fight. In the midst of the argument a messenger arrives with news of Cornwall's death while cutting out Gloucester's eyes. Goneril is angry because her sister is now free to pursue Edmund, and Albany is livid because of the cruel mistreatment of Gloucester, vowing to revenge him. Kent speaks to a man who recently delivered letters to Cordelia detailing her father's condition. She very much wishes to see her father, but he refuses in shame. Cordelia sends a party to find Lear as Cornwall and Albany's armies are preparing to fight. The story then switches to Regan and Oswald, who are discussing a letter from Goneril to Edmund. Regan tells Oswald that she is also interested in Edmund. While this is happening, Edgar brings Gloucester to a hill in Dover, telling him that it is an enormous cliff. Gloucester, intending to commit suicide, prays and then falls over the "cliff," really just falling forward. Edgar wakes his father, assuming yet another persona. He tells Gloucester that the man fell from a great height and is miraculously still alive. Lear then joins the party, mad as ever. Cordelia's people finally find Lear, who tries to run but is captured. Oswald finds Edgar and Gloucester and intends to kill Gloucester, but Edgar slays him first. Lear and Cordelia are finally reunited in the camp and Cordelia forgives her father.


3. Albany becomes a dynamic character in this section, transitioning from a cruel ally of the eldest sisters to a compassionate, remorseful friend of Gloucester. This bout of redemption seems to coincide with Albany's witnessing of Gloucester's attack, not only in the stabbing out of his eyes, but in the abuse he endured at the hands of Goneril and Regan as well. Because Albany stood beside Goneril throughout the beginning of her abuse of her father, I assume he was not simply a meek "good guy" all along. Instead, he was a "bad guy" who had a change of heart. In doing so, he provides one of the only character changes that occur in this play. Lear is the other transformation, going from sane and selfish to lunatic but compassionate. These two characters both wind up becoming better people as a result of their changes. Interestingly, like Lear, Albany uses animal imagery to describe Goneril. In Scene II, Line 44, Albany asks, "Tigers, not daughters, what have you performed?" Is Albany becoming more like his father-in-law?
Cordelia seems to be venerated in this section. She is described as tears that "as pearls from diamonds dropped" with "smiles and tears" like "sunshine and rain" (Scene 3, Lines 17-21). Her tears are also referred to as "holy water from her heavenly eyes" (Scene 3, Line 33). Especially in light of her contrasting character to that of her sisters, Cordelia appears to be angelic. She is the pure daughter, whereas her sisters are morally corrupted. Even though Cordelia is the only one mistreated by King Lear, she is the only one who stands by him and loves him through it all. While her sisters took advantage of his assets, Cordelia was accepting of her banishment and ultimately forgave her father.
Gloucester's wish for death points to his easily defeatable nature. When things don't go as he wishes, instead of trying to reconcile the situation he simply dismisses life. Granted, when tragedy befalls him, it is in greater amounts than most ever experience. However, Gloucester aiming to fall off of a cliff demonstrates his tendency toward despair and hopelessness.


4. Was Shakespeare intending to set Cordelia up to be worshipped? Is she supposed to be compared to the Virgin Mary? Or is this simply taking the context too far?

Was Shakespeare making a statement by having both Albany and Lear make positive transformations? Is this change in goodness significant?

Will Gloucester end up killing himself, will he find joy in life again, or will he simply live in a state of misery for the rest of the play? He is so apathetic toward everything except sorrow; will this be the ruin of him?

King Lear, Act III

1. Impetuous: 1 : marked by impulsive vehemence or passion
2 : marked by force and violence of movement or action
-Merriam-Webster Online

Page 57 (Act III, Scene I): "...Which the impetuous blasts, with eyeless rage,
Catch in their fury, and make nothing of;
Strives in his little world of man to outscorn
The to-and-fro conflicting wind and rain."


2. Act III begins with Kent searching for Lear in the woods. He comes upon a knight who tells him that Lear is nearby with his fool. Kent gives the knight a ring and tells him to bring it to Cordelia, as she will understand who sent it. Lear and his fool continue to wander as this happens, with Lear clearly growing madder. When Kent finally encounters the two, he urges them to take shelter. Meanwhile, Gloucester is in his castle with Edmund. The former explains his distress at the two sisters shutting their father out. He then speaks of rumors of conflict between Cornwall and Albany before stating that he wishes to go search for Lear. He tells Edmund that if Cornwall learns of his actions he will be treated as a traitor and begs him to say nothing. Edmund secretly rejoices at the opportunity to end his father's life, taking control of his estate and possessions. The narration then switches back to Kent, Lear and the fool, who run into Edgar disguised as Poor Tom. Gloucester then finds them, but does not recognize his son. Gloucester convinces everyone to go back to his castle, despite the risk that Goneril, Regan, and Cornwall pose. The men arrive at a barn, and Lear holds a mock trial with animals taking the place of his daughters. Edgar and the fool play along and behave as madmen, allowing Lear's fantasy to take place. Lear falls asleep as Gloucester runs in, telling the other men that he has overheard a threat to the king's life. They all flee, with Lear, toward Dover. Back at Gloucester's castle, Cornwall orders the capture of Gloucester. He is caught and brought before his daughters, and Cornwall rips out his eyes. Gloucester's servant steps in and kills Cornwall. Regan tells Gloucester that Edmund is the one who betrayed him, and Gloucester realizes that Edgar is his loyal and loving son.


3. As Lear descends deeper into his madness, he seems to gain an understanding and a sympathy for others that he previously lacked. There is one point where he is praying, but not for himself. Instead, his efforts are extended toward "..poor naked wretches, wheresoe’er you are, That bide the pelting of this pitiless storm” (Act III, Scene IV, Lines 29-30). This is an extreme change from the commencement of the play, in which he disowned his favorite daughter for not boosting his pride. Where he used to care only about himself, Lear can finally think of others. Lear also tries to take off his clothing in an attempt to be nearer to the beggars. He has become human where before he was always striving to be above the level of all surrounding him. Similarly, Lear finally feels remorse and sees the error of his ways. He has realized that his eldest daughters are evil, and that his youngest, Cordelia, is the one who truly loved him. By seeing this he has also seen the tremendous mistake he made in casting her out. Before he started to lose his mind, Lear would never have admitted a flaw. He saw himself as perfect, never making mistakes. It's interesting to think about whether Shakespeare intended this change to be a product of his loss of mind or whether it was more of a trade-off. Cordelia seems to be near perfection, but all other characters seem to have a flaw. Can one be flawless, or must one always have an imperfection?
Animal imagery was interesting in this section. First, the cruel daughters are referred to as "wolves" by Kent in Scene IV, Line 16. Later, Lear calls them she foxes (Act IV, Line 20). Then the trial takes place, in which Lear uses animals to represent Regan and Goneril. It is suggested that in his madness he truly believes the animals to be his daughters, giving them a real trial. This animal imagery is fascinating, suggesting the primitive and predatory instincts they display. Lear himself is referred to as an animal as well, a "bare, forked animal" (Act IV, Lines 99-100). Is the king trying to relate to his wicked daughters? Or did he see himself as the animal first, then showing that they got their tendencies from him, although in a much more vicious form?


4. Is Shakespeare suggesting that one must have a character flaw? When Lear is sane he is arrogant and selfish, yet when he loses his mind, he becomes kind-hearted and loving. Is this caused by the change, or is it put into the plot to prove a point?